Samurai swords - how long before a total ban?

Pete B wrote...

Looks like another Govt ban which will making a sweeping statement about
all edged weapons - will be interesting to see how they define a samurai
sword (seeing as they once called a machete....), does this also include
iai blades ... what about bokken... Oh what fun.

Over to you, Flashing Blade!!!

Posted by: Pete B  | December 12, 2007 4:23 PM

phil doherty wrote...

One good thing that came out of the sword ban consultation was how many martial artists and groups came together to defend our collective arts.
To give due where due is deserved the Government did listen to the martial arts groups and has put in exemptions.
This was in no small measure due to the positive experience Barbara Dunne had at your dojo as she was the person who was pushing the Government on this issue. She had the Government's ear.
Barbara - who I know well - is a remarkable woman who has suffered terribly because of what happened to her son Robert.
But she listened and understood the great benefits that martial aerts training gives to individuals.
Because of that she recommended to the Minister that martial arts should be exempt.
Like I've said, she is a remarkable woman.

Posted by: phil doherty  | December 12, 2007 4:56 PM

Robin wrote...

I think this raises an important issue for consideration; do current British crime-prevention programs focus too little on the actual root and focus of the offence at hand?

Whilst I fully sympaphise with any victim, or friend or relative of a victim of crime perpetrated with martial arts blades, I think it both mistaken to prohibit such items (and they certainly will be prohibited for even martial artists very soon after, in all likelihood), as well as grossy inefficient for tackling violent crime. Such instruments are merely the means and method to committing such acts of harm on others, they have little or no relevance to the action itself. As already highlighted, if some person is willing to maim or kill another with a samurai sword, surely such a mentality and capability is almost certain to be translated to another implement if a sword is not available. It would appear that banning such swords would merely push such monsters into using something else. If we want to see a reduction in violent crime, then we should be identifying and focussing upon these individuals who are at the root of the problem.

Ultimately, this can be seen in a number of other areas; most predominantly in the attempts to remove the narcotics trade from the UK. Once again, more often than not, it is not the root of the problem (the suppliers and dealers) who are targetted, but the means (the users who fund a number of other criminal activities).

Consequently, we must ask ourselves: whilst this law (which most probably will lead to a complete prohibition soon) may reduce some specific instances of violence, is it really an effective strategy for combating violent crime?

Posted by: Robin  | December 12, 2007 10:43 PM

Barb wrote...

John rest assured that its the cheap replica swords that are been banned they will be added to the banned list, not the genuine swords.
I have stated over and over today when asked the question about martial arts all the critria you have to have to aquire one.
When anyone on the street can go and buy a cheap replica for 50 pounds..
The genuine swords are exemt,the government are aware of the difference thats why it went to consultation.
Yes I was impressed by your dojo group
Phil I am not remarkable at all, you will give me a big head.
I just stood up and fought back and had huge support, and I am sure we all welcome the cheap replica swords getting banned.
Like you said a yobbo wont pay the price for a genuine sword, the ban will protect the reputation of the genuine swords.
I think what will happen the government will ask for proof that you are martial arts and that will exclude you.
By the way thankyou for your kind comments, and thanks to Phil too.

God bless Barb.

Posted by: Barb  | December 12, 2007 11:46 PM

Steven Mclaughlan wrote...

It is increasingly likely the the government will adopt thier usual stance and ban all sword type weapons but let's hope they do it in a constructive way.
John's 5 simple criteria would be a huge step forward.
* A member of a legitimate club and association
* Criminal records bureau checked
* Law abiding and have no major criminal convictions
* Registered with the local police force
* Be a recognised and qualified instructor or student

This attitude to policing the purchase, requirement and usage of this type of weapon will cost money and that will be the stumbling block. Only through repeated lobbing of our government representatives and very stringent self-regulation within our associations will they take us seriously. This is already the case with gun clubs and they seem to manage ok so, although it will be difficult to begin with, our need and use of these weapons must be recognised, regulated and legalised.
Let's see if Mr Brown and his army of advisors can muster the courage to seek advice from those effected by this restriction and not make bold sweeping judgements to gain a few votes.

Posted by: Steven Mclaughlan  | December 14, 2007 11:36 AM

Peter S wrote...

I agree Robin. Its as if this country was a large garden being dug up by moles - you dont just go round flattening the mole hills and repairing the damage, you go after the moles. If you dont the moles will breed and you will have many more mole hills to flatten (with all the extra expense in time and money) untill you have no garden left. Pete

Posted by: Peter S  | December 14, 2007 1:03 PM

Hev wrote...

Poor moles.

Posted by: Hev  | December 18, 2007 1:03 PM

Andy wrote...

Ok this might seem obvious and has probably been thought of before but I personally see it as a very easy thing to regulate. As practicing martial artists we should all be licensed to do whatever it is we do. You will find that in most shops that sell martial arts equipment licenses are needed to buy even wooden weapons. So why is it that in this day and age we can't provide martial artists nationwide with a practitioners code or number that should need to be produced when buying either in shops or online, this can be checked against a database kept by the government and provided to licensed sellers. It'd cost a few quid but surely as a community of both small and very very large organizations, funding for this can be provided. in such circumstances a total ban would never be needed. Unless of course they lose the details (oops).

I agree completely with the comments made about addressing the root of the problem but we are being led by a reactionary government, which has been brought to light recently with the police complaints regarding detection figures. Some regulation of martial arts weapons is needed, in that sense I do agree with the legislation that stands but fingers crossed it won't go to much further.

Robin I agree with you in principal but I don't think it is comparable with the drugs trade. Violent crime is not a matter of supply and demand, where as you can trace a supply route to its source, issues like violent crime are underlined by an attitude in communities particularly in poorer areas. However one perpetrator of a stabbing could have completely different reasons for doing so than another ranging from gang warfare (a community issue) to a person suffering from mental illness (a personal issue) where do you draw the line. It is fair to say tackle the root of the problem, but what is it? Like a tree, this problems got more than one.

My thoughts go out to those who have lost loved ones and hope and pray for their wellbeing.

Posted by: Andy  | December 18, 2007 4:46 PM

Anonymous wrote...

Maybe its the lack of good 'Mole Rodels' for our arts and for youngsters?

Posted by: Anonymous  | December 19, 2007 9:46 AM

andy wrote...

Ok this might seem obvious and has probably been thought of before but I
personally see it as a very easy thing to regulate. As practicing martial
artists we should all be licensed to do whatever it is we do. You will find
that in most shops that sell martial arts equipment licenses are needed to
buy even wooden weapons. So why is it that in this day and age we can't
provide martial artists nationwide with a practitioners code or number that
should need to be produced when buying either in shops or online, this can
be checked against a database kept by the government and provided to
licensed sellers. It'd cost a few quid but surely as a community of both
small and very very large organizations, funding for this can be provided.
in such circumstances a total ban would never be needed. Unless of course
they lose the details (oops).

I agree completely with the comments made about addressing the root of the
problem but we are being led by a reactionary government, which has been
brought to light recently with the police complaints regarding detection
figures. Some regulation of martial arts weapons is needed, in that sense I
do agree with the legislation that stands but fingers crossed it won't go
to much further.

Robin I agree with you in principal but I don't think it is comparable
with the drugs trade. Violent crime is not a matter of supply and demand,
where as you can trace a supply route to its source, issues like violent
crime are underlined by an attitude in communities particularly in poorer
areas. However one perpetrator of a stabbing could have completely
different reasons for doing so than another ranging from gang warfare (a
community issue) to a person suffering from mental illness (a personal
issue) where do you draw the line. It is fair to say tackle the root of the
problem, but what is it? Like a tree, this problems got more than one.

My thoughts go out to those who have lost loved ones and hope and pray for
their wellbeing.

Posted by: andy  | December 19, 2007 10:06 AM

Peter S wrote...

V well said andy, you are right of course -> many roots. Repeating the point of martial arts in schools, I think this could address a wide range of potential violence problems. Maybe at a more grass roots level cultivating a positive influence and help develop a more realistic view of violence and its consequences (than is conveyed by the present 'X Box era' and the media's hyped up representation of violence - the rapper culture and its perceived rewards etc). Not being naive, I know violence has its place and is a part of growing up. But to learn control is a major influence on how violence is expressed, and where better than in well structured coaching by competent instructors in schools.
As 'anonymous' put it, positive 'Mole Rodels' portraying the good guy scenario, the thoughtful warrior, the man of peace, violence with honour, respect etc. Rather than the mindless, thoughtless, disrespectful attitudes which seem to be prevalent at the moment.
Bit of a hobby horse subject for me at the moment but would be great for Government to put some sort of initiative forward (Maybe not this government though - a proper plan by the next one in may bear more fruit).
PS: Marts in schools would also help the current obesity concerns?
P

Posted by: Peter S  | December 19, 2007 1:21 PM

Dean Wormall wrote...

What it is important to remember that this is the same country and government that, when drink related crime soars, their intended solution is to put the price of alcohol through the roof (coincidently gaining more in taxes) rather than actually adress the issue as with this one, and actually make the penalty fit the seriousness of the crime and implement a serious detterrent instead of the liberal attitude that is adopted now.

Posted by: Dean Wormall  | December 21, 2007 8:04 PM

Anonymous wrote...

Well Dean - you are right of course, this present administration is not doing a very good job in almost all areas. Thought an elected governments role was to ensure (or at least try to) the safety, security, health, wellbeing and happiness of its people? I know there are a whole load of factors to consider, but the current 'mob' in charge constantly seem to be picking up the s*** end of stick every time. Instead of having a think about the long game they seem to always try the quick fix with subsequent results (and the waste)!!!. There has been a recent article about a large % of british workers being bored, under using their potential, demotivated, undervalued etc. Maybe this melancholy spreads to all areas of life, affecting to some extent the attitudes and behaviour of everyone in general. Seems to be nothing but negative vibes no matter where you go. Feels like the British spirit is being slowly dismantled. Lets see the government and those 'up there' launch some positive initiatives (not ones to benefit the pockets of the in crowd) - some mentioned in this blog would be a good start - Marts in schools, proper consequences for criminal acts, etc. But consult the people on the ground floor instead of the usual 'decision makers' (and their so called advisors) who are usually subject ignorant.
Just another idea to address the traffic chaos, how about organising a staggered work day - schools start at 7am. (Believe swedish kids school day is 6am till 1pm)- some workers start at 7am , others at 9 or ten - whatever - would at least stretch the rush hour and may alleviate the problem as well as helping with the twice daily massive carbon 'bootprint' we see in present traffic jams.

Posted by: Anonymous  | January 4, 2008 10:04 AM

Marty wrote...

Again a government knee-jerk, I am an engineer and teach engineering.

The art of manufacturing swords is fascinating and involves many disciplines (not just Japanese either) for example it has taken six months, many pounds in materials and a great deal of my spare time to create by hand a “tanto� (a short Samurai sword). This has been made from scratch to ancient and traditional dimensions.

My sword will never see battle, will hopefully be passed on through the family and will hopefully be an inspiration on what can be learned and created, as long as I do not have to hand it in for incineration.

Posted by: Marty  | January 9, 2008 1:27 PM

mike simpson wrote...

Some really interesting and thought-provoking comments from everyone on this issue - leading me to throw in my two'penneth...
I must agree with Marty - these swords (the genuine ones) are truly works of art and should be regarded as such, not singled out in a publicity conscious quick-fix to the readily apparent problem of an increasingly atomised society.
Personally I don't expect too much from any government, and genuinely feel it is the responsibility of parents and the immediate community to try to establish modes of appropriate behaviour, even to some extent try to reclaim our streets from criminal and antisocial elements.
We also need to try to understand better the roots of violence, both in this country and around the world. As a species we certainly seem to be "hard-wired" for violence, but also for co-operation and mutual respect: something MA can help foster.
As Peter S suggests - perhaps we should be promoting martial arts in schools as a way of channeling the aggression and giving it some grounding in reality rather than the vicarious violence of our media, "gangster" culture and video games. After all, it isn't the guys with licences and a genuine desire to learn who are the perpetrators of this violence...on the whole it seems to be kids with no perceived future or cultural well-being. As a society, every one of these "problem children" is part of our shared burden of responsibilty, and the solutions need to be as complex and wide-ranging as the problems.

Posted by: mike simpson  | January 15, 2008 4:01 PM

Anonymous wrote...

Hi Mike.
Ive actually done one or two 'come and try it' sessions in schools. The kids loved it and continue to ask when the next one will be. Problem could appear to be possibly the staff, (PE and other) and their perception of marts along with their general inexperience and therefore loss of influence in the proceedings - (Trying to be diplomatic here). Ive had follow up sessions cancelled to accomodate tennis, badminton, cheerleading etc, all of which cater for 10 or 12 participants max. Whereas the numbers interested in marts (with all its attendant benefits, both personal and social) exceeded 30. Also most schools being underfunded dont have reasonable, safe mats of the required quantity.
Maybe as was mooted last year when the 'youth obesity' problem was being highlighted and some government bod suggested marts in schools - the government actually acted on a suggestion and financed some schemes.
Question?? - Which govenment sold off loads of school playing fields for building land and when - Ive Forgotten?
Obviously whoever delivers the classes must be competant, be CRB checked, insured , first aid etc - which is something my governing body (aff to the sports council) insists on.

Posted by: Anonymous  | January 16, 2008 1:07 PM

Anonymous wrote...

Hi E1.
Hope all well.
Last wednesday my son who is a student at northumbria uni was attacked (for no reason)whilst walking home from a rugby match. About 11 to 12 pm near the pedestrian bridge from the uni campus over the underpass. He was attacked by two 18/19 year olds about 6 foot tall skinny (you know the type - cream of society). He must have looked an easy target - slightly drunk, alone etc. Unfortunately (for them) he is about 6ft1 15+ stone, plays rugby for uni, has a little martial background. He said whithout thinking he avoided the first punch, shirt collared the assailant and ran him into a hot dog van. Avoided the second assailant helping him to the ground as he went. To be again attacked by the first one which he accidently 'clotheslined'.
He then walked casually and calmly away.
The thing which upset him was the hot dog man shouting at him for attacking his van with a thug. He said 'I couldnt help it'.
On a serious note these thugs had mayhem in mind (if 'mind' is an operative word in their case). Any innocent would do and how far would they have gone with my son if he were a less able lad - or some other persons child? Would they have kicked or stabbed him to death??
Whats happening folks!!
When are the government going to get their fingers out - root causes are a thing to look at first - then proper sanctions.
Hear the latest - residents should patrol and sort out their neighborhoods - all when a leaked report arises about the home office wanting to reduce police numbers!!

Wot U think.

This is an email doing the rounds: The last part is amazing - would you even employ any of this lot:

London Times Obituary of the late Mr. Common Sense

Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense, who has
been with us for many years. No one knows for sure how old he was, since his
birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape.

He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as:

Knowing when to come in out of the rain; why the early bird gets the worm;
Life isn't always fair; and maybe it was my fault.

Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don't spend more
than you can earn) and reliable strategies (adults, not children, are in
charge).

His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well-intentioned but
overbearing regulations were set in place. Reports of a 6-year-old boy
charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended from
school for using mouthwash after lunch; and a teacher fired for reprimanding
an unruly student, only worsened his condition.

Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job
that they themselves had failed to do in disciplining their unruly children.
It declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent
to administer sun lotion or an Elastoplast to a student; but could not
inform parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an
abortion.

Common Sense lost the will to live as the Ten Commandments became
contraband; churches became businesses; and criminals received better
treatment than their victims. Common Sense took a beating when you couldn't
defend yourself from a burglar in your own home and the burglar could sue
you for assault.

Common Sense finally gave up the will to live, after a woman failed to
realize that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her
lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement.

Common Sense was preceded in death by his parents, Truth and Trust; his
wife, Discretion; his daughter, Responsibility; and his son, Reason. He is
survived by his 4 stepbrothers;
I Know My Rights,
I Want It Now,
It's Not My Fault, and
I'm A Victim.

Not many attended his funeral because so few realized he was gone. If you
still remember him, pass this on. If not, join the majority and do nothing.'

And a little extra........................

Can you imagine working for a company that has a little more than 600
employees and has the following statistics?

29 have been accused of spouse abuse, 7 have been arrested for fraud, 19
have been accused of writing bad cheques, 117 have directly or indirectly
bankrupted at least 2 businesses, 3 have done time for assault, 71 cannot
get a credit card due to bad credit, 4 have been arrested on drug-related
charges, 8 have been arrested for shoplifting, 21 are currently defendants
in lawsuits, 84 have been arrested for drink driving in the last year.

Which organization is this?

It's the 635 members of the House of Commons, the same group that cranks out
hundreds of new laws each year designed to keep the rest of us in line.

I rest my case.

Posted by: Anonymous  | February 14, 2008 1:03 PM

Anonymous wrote...

Its not going to make anyone safer.
It will however restrict what I can do and what I can possess -not right, and not very British. Hitler WOULD agree with the home office Gandi WOULDN'T. Whoose side would you rather take in an historical argument?

Posted by: Anonymous  | March 31, 2008 9:48 PM

john b wrote...

Hello Gents,

As you are aware the sword ban is now upon us and were still none the wiser as to how they will police the ban, that been said i have successfully bought a dragonfly katana from america. Having contacted the home office and customs, explaining the reason i was purchasing the weapon was because i was a martial artist and an instructor of the sword. some basic questions were asked and details taken and i recieved the weapon without hitch.Use caution though, three days after the katana arrived i was stung for £156 customs duty. i consider this a small price to pay for such a elegant weapon.

Posted by: john b  | April 21, 2008 7:00 PM